Talent Crush: Mammal Hands
Life is a lot like jazz – it’s best when you improvise. Not my words – Gershwin’s. Combining melancholic harmonies with the urgency of jazz and post-rock sensibilities, Jordan Smart (saxophone), Jesse Barrett (drums and tabla) and Nick Smart (piano), also known as Mammal Hands, are way progressive and divergent in their choices to be superficially labeled as a jazz trio. After watching a short film about their latest release Gift from the Trees, all I could think about was the trees and their roots, the importance of interconnectedness in our lives, the things we can learn from nature if we put ourselves in a mindset where we’re ready to listen and appreciate things for what they are. As if trees haven’t already been heavily discussed in this interview, another tree-related fact that I’ve always found fascinating is that redwoods, the world’s tallest trees, have very shallow roots that go only five or six feet deep. So how do they stay standing during a tumultuous storm? They intertwine their roots by connecting to neighboring trees, and these roots act as hands to hold each other up during difficult times. Redwoods support each other with nutrients through their interconnected roots, including their young, sick, and old. They will help each other even if they aren’t family. That’s the lesson that rustles in the leaves, it’s the strength in our roots, and a way of living we can learn from the trees. Mammal Hands once said that their definition of success is about making music together, growing, and expanding the audience while staying healthy and connected as musicians and friends. Redwoods don’t survive alone, and humans can’t either. We need each other. This interview is not just about music and all things crossover jazz, it’s about building connections, whether deep or wide. Today, living in an embrace of others is yet something we have to learn from the trees.
KELLY KORZUN: By the time you embarked on your journey as a band over a decade ago, you’ve already formed a special bond, and it all started in Norwich. What was it like?
Jordan: Nick and I grew up together in a small village north of London in the early 90s, and our early years were mainly spent playing outside and building shelters. Even though we were a year apart in school and had different groups of friends, we had many overlapping interests and hobbies. Back in the day, we were really into rock and guitar music, things like Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix, which eventually resulted in our love for post-rock, but we listened to a lot of folk music as well and went to folk festivals as a family.
Nick: We started playing music together around our early teens – I learnt how to play drums and we learnt how to play electric guitar together by practicing the riffs from all the rock music we loved. Soon after, our family moved to Norwich, and we carried on learning and playing on the streets of the city, which became a start of us improvising together. When I was in college, we started a post-rock band together with friends, then we met Jesse and formed Mammal Hands.
Jesse: The house I grew up in wasn’t exactly musical, but very creative that valued music a lot. Just a few doors down from our house, there was an Irish traditional music session in the pub – that was my first exposure to drumming. The bodhran player used to show me what to play, and I’d sit on his knee and try to play for the band. For a long time, I was really into skateboarding, and the ethos of skate culture is still with me till this day – this get-up-and-keep-trying-until-you-get-it type of mentality.
KK: Which makes total sense because both skateboarding and drumming are about patterns and learning new tricks. Just like you, I was born in 86, so skate culture was a big part of the alternative music scene. Besides skatecore, what were your early music influences?
Jesse: Yes, we just caught up the tail of the rave scene, which was linked into the skate scene at the time. I’d say my main influences were the people around me, people who were playing music and introducing me to new things. There’s a certain rhythm and pace of life in Suffolk where I grew up, which in itself is the greatest single influence. There was also a wave of involvement in West African music in the city, particularly the drumming. In my early years, I went backpacking around East Africa and learned a lot just by jamming with people there. Apart from that, I was also really into Evelyn Glennie, Bob Marley, Bowie, and hip-hop music my older brother was into.
KK: You've been learning how to play tabla from your guru Sirishkumar Manji for two decades now. How did the two of you initially connect and what was that experience like?
Jesse: Sirish and I met during his performance with a beat poet Philip Wells, which actually took place in my home. It was my first exposure to tabla and it definitely was a defining moment for me. Within the culture of tabla, you never stop learning from your teacher or guru, which is very different from the western traditions. I’m still his student to this day, but sometimes it clashes with my born culture and might be difficult for people to understand. Sirish is an extremely diligent and dedicated teacher, and learning from him is very traditional in some ways, yet very open and progressive. He’s helped me a lot and through many difficult parts of my journey, which is a hard path to walk because it requires every ounce of yourself. You cannot hold anything back, and it’s important to stay open-minded and positive through all the stages and challenges that come your way.
KK: All five studio albums you’ve released so far have been executed by just the three of you. It’s obvious that you feel extremely comfortable playing together, which results in producing a distinctive and unique sound as a band. Besides potentially collaborating with a vocalist, have you ever considered adding other members as far as exploring new ideas goes?
Jordan: It’s never been off the table for us, but we’ve always felt we had enough to say with just the three of us. As a band, we tend to follow the creativity and music and let that lead, which doesn’t rule out collaborations or extra members – it would just have to feel right for that point in time.
KK: Speaking of your sound leading the way, it seems to me that your signature sound was developed very gradually with your first releases and fully took form only with your third studio album. This impression is obviously very subjective, but I’m wondering what informed that sound development. Was there a particular moment when you realized you found something really special stylistically?
Jordan: At that point, a big portion of our lives was on the road, and I think that discovery and experimentation with the sound came from playing a lot of shows in front of people, which really helped us to forge it further and hone it against the real test of an audience, similar to how we started busking in some ways.
KK: How does this feedback loop look like in practice? I’m particularly curious about that balance between introspection and tapping into your own world, and outrospection, which is directly linked to the audience’s feedback.
Nick: It's always interesting to hear people’s reactions to the live shows, especially if they had an intense experience. Through talking with people after the shows over the years, I've understood more about the power of music and what it does for people, that it can bring up very strong emotional responses or suppressed feelings and it can force the listener to engage and allow these feelings to emerge in a cathartic way. By surrendering to this process, there’s a collective healing that’s happening where despite the music initially bringing on feelings of sadness or painful memories, it can bring a release from pain, even if only for the duration of the show or a short period after. People have told me that music transported them from a dark place to the place where they felt lighter and more free in their spirit. This awareness gives a show a clear sense of purpose and meaning, which is really important for me.
Jordan: Getting verbal feedback is very interesting and sometimes useful, but often the real feedback happens on a very intuitive level in the physical space where you can see, feel, and hear the energy of the audience and how they respond to certain moments and energies from our music. This changes night to night, room to room, audience to audience, and helps keep the music alive for us, as well as for the people we share it with. Sometimes it’s the high octane moments and the sudden changes, other times it’s the meditative moments and stillness that we all create together, but, at some point, you will feel that a section or piece has connected to the audience in the right way in this very moment. Another rewarding thing is that quite often we are handed drawings or paintings that people make during the shows, and I keep them all because they serve as a direct way of sensing people’s creative response to the music. One of the purposes of creating in any medium is to foster a creative response in other people in just the same way we receive it from other artists and to have a conversation through mediums that aren’t nessecerily verbal.
KK: A few years ago, two-thirds of Mammal Hands (Jordan and Nick) formed an electronic music project Sunda Arc. You’ve mentioned that if Sunda Arc could score for a film or tv show, it would be Black Mirror. As a band, have you been approached to work on a music score? If you were scoring for a film, how would you adapt your creative process?
Jordan: The creative process would definitely be very different, but, to be honest, it’s not something I would consider approaching as a band because it’s more about deep studio work and composing in very detail, with a lot of textures and layers at your disposal, which seems more relevant to Sunda Arc. Mammal Hands, on the other hand, has always been about the live energy and feeling of playing together. That said, if I had to pick something we could vibe off live, a nature documentary or something visually striking like an older anime, say, Akira, could be a good fit.
Nick: We did actually get asked if we would consider doing a nature documentary series, but it didn’t work out in the end. Thinking about it now, I agree with Jordan that it wouldn’t be the easiest thing for us to do as a band because it feels like our music has a life of its own that exists beyond the three of us. When working on a score, you really have to serve the film and support the narrative. We’ve only told our own stories with the music we created, so it would be a real challenge to devote all of our energy to breathe life into someone else’s story, but that’s not to say it could never happen.
KK: I’m always mesmerized by how beautifully you’re painting abstract strokes with sounds and all the dynamics not only in your your studio albums, but also in the way your tracklists and even individual tracks are structured. Whenever I get asked about the music that really inspired me in the last couple of years, some names might come and go, but Mammal Hands always remains a constant on that list. What was one of the most recent music experiences that felt like a breath of fresh air and blew you away?
Jordan: One of the most interesting shows I’ve seen recently was from two friends of ours, Nick Hart and Tom Moore. They recently released an album The Colour of Amber where they reimagined traditional folk songs on voice, viol and viola. This record has a beautiful, deep sound, and the show I saw recently was truly transporting. Everything Tom has released in the last few years on his label Slow Worm is great.
Jesse: Recently, I’ve been playing quite a bit of capoeira and my group also has a really strong bateria, a musical accompaniment group. Listening to the bateria, moving and feeling the energy of the songs and rhythms my friends are playing has been really inspiring and refreshing. The music is simple, yet there’s so much depth and history to it. The way it’s connected to movement and the language of physical improvisation has given me some beautiful insights.
Nick: Last year, I saw William Basinski at Norwich Arts Centre and he totally blew me away. Being familiar with a few of his records, most of which were tape loop based, I was expecting something ambient and subdued, but, instead, it was this incredibly intense, beautiful and apocalyptic wail of a sound that completely took me out of the room. He seemed absolutely transported too, hunched over and sweating over his tape machines with his eyes closed. There was such a powerful emotion coming through his music that by the end of the show the tape loops were disintegrating and the sound was breaking up, almost as if the sound of the show was gradually dying until it all got silent at the end. It was a really profound moment that has stayed with me since.
KK: There’s an interview by Sting about The Empty Chair, the song he recorded for 2016 documentary film Jim: The James Foley Story, where he said that he couldn't write anything until he thought about a specific metaphor, something that everyone who ever lost their family member could relate to, which is this image of an empty chair at the dinner table. What’s your preferred method to overcoming creative blocks and connecting to the material on a deeper level?
Jordan: Dealing with creative blocks is a very individual process, but for me, whenever something isn’t working, the best thing to do is pouring the enevery elsewhere for the day and not forcing it. Having many outlets and mediums for creativity helps a lot too, but if none of those are working, sometimes just reading, listening, or moving your body can steer you in the right direction. It’s all about finding a balance, and you can never be just an output, you need an input too. Read as much as you write is the old author’s adage.
Jesse: From my experience, creative blocks take place when you’re fighting yourself on some level or being too convergent in your mindset. When I’m in a relaxed state and well-practiced, everything flows, but if there’s an element of negative tension, whether physical or mental, I won’t be able to operate at full capacity. If I’m present with the music and the people around me, I feel very connected to the sound and energy of the music we’re making, which is enough to let ideas flow. Creation is all about keeping that positive mindset and being fully present and reactive at all times.
Nick: Each idea I bring into the band has a personal meaning and its main purpose is to communicate a specific feeling. To be honest, I don’t have trouble coming up with ideas, so I don’t deal with the writer’s block too much, but I always try to get into a mindset where I’m open to what that day has to offer and in tune with where I’m at in a particular moment in time. Letting something happen at its natural time and not forcing it is the key.
KK: Besides its improvisational aspect, what is it about jazz as a genre that you still find exciting?
Jordan: The intersection between melody and improvisation is very interesting, particularly the rhythmic aspects of it. Just like in a lot of folk music from around the world, a certain theme is defined, developed, and then shared by everybody. It’s all about the flow, which holds a lot more interest to me than jazz improvisation, which oftentimes feels like math or some sort of an intellectual exercise with a lot of ego involved.
Jesse: The core aspects of people making sound expressively is extremely interesting and inspiring. I’ve never felt like a jazz musician, but I’m happy to feel that way now. The expressiveness and life of the world of improvisation is what pulls me in not only in jazz, but in every kind of music. As musicians, we’re all trying to get to the same thing. To be honest, I’m not into the contemporary jazz scene in particular, but I’ll listen to anything that’s good, and I’ve seen some wonderful and fresh gigs when out on the road.
Nick: The intensity of the energy and passion coming through someone is what always pulls me in. It’s a real joy to witness someone giving it everything they have and telling a story from the deepest part of themselves. However, it’s a very rare feeling, and most of the time I’m left feeling cold rather than being completely elated, but when it does happen and the power of it is undeniable, it really stands out and lifts me up on a deep level.
KK: Nature is the most aesthetic of places because it’s our original home. As I was listening to Gift from the Trees, the word that kept circulating in my mind was harmony, which is something both music and nature have in common. How do you maintain that balance between accelerating and slowing yourself down these days? What are the things that help bring harmony into your life?
Jordan: These are the things we learn about ourselves individually over time, and they change and evolve. Swimming and being underwater is something that helps me close off the monkey brain for a little while, as well as yoga and breathing exercises. Music as well, particularly a long-tone ney practice. It’s very calming and pretty close to a medication as it requires breath control and stillness.
Jesse: Besides tabla being my number one tool for staying calm and balanced day to day, getting into nature, exercising regularly and spending time with older people and my kids is what helps me keep that balance.
Nick: This balance is tricky for me. When I’m at home, I can achieve some feeling of stillness if things aren’t too hectic, but finding that balance is a lot harder when I’m on the road for gigs and don’t always have an option of doing the things that I would normally do to ground myself. Something that has taken me quite a long time to achieve is finding a good approach for being calm and present while performing on stage and not allowing myself to get distracted by fear or doubt. Another tricky thing is that after the shows your adrenaline is pumping, so I often find myself in a place where I’m alert and my mind is racing when I should be going to sleep in order to get up early the next day for the show, so it’s a constant balancing act that I’m always trying (but sometimes failing) to keep.
KK: All of your recorded material is a combination of improvisation and precomposed components, but you took it even further improvisation-wise with your latest release Gift from the Trees. There’s this beautiful passage about trees from Hermann Hesse’s book Wandering: “Trees are like lonely persons. Not like hermits who have stolen away out of some weakness, but like great, solitary men, like Beethoven and Nietzsche. They struggle with all the force of their lives for one thing only: to fulfill themselves according to their own laws, to build up their own form, to represent themselves. Nothing is holier, nothing is more exemplary than a beautiful, strong tree. When a tree is cut down and reveals its naked death-wound to the sun, one can read its whole history in the luminous, inscribed disk of its trunk: in the rings of its years, its scars, all the struggle, all the suffering, all the sickness, all the happiness and prosperity stand truly written, the narrow years and the luxurious years, the attacks withstood, the storms endured. Trees have long thoughts, long-breathing and restful, just as they have longer lives than ours. They are wiser than we are, as long as we do not listen to them. Whoever has learned how to listen to trees no longer wants to be a tree. He wants to be nothing except what he is. That is home. That is happiness.” Looking back, can you think about truly special moments of connecting to nature and yourself on a deeper level?
Jordan: There are quite a few moments that stick out to me, but one of my favourites has to be watching the sunset over Aphrodite’s Rock in Cyprus. The length of this process and climbing the rock beforehand added to the moment, as well as sharing this experience with other people, but I also think that small rituals like this can take you out of your normal patterns and help you go into a trance or liminal state more easily. Another memorable experience was a day spent in Exmoor with my partner, and I always find the moors in South England to be especially bleak and unique places – just wandering them with no plan or intention can make you really connect to them and imagine the people that came before you and did the same. They are littered with old stone structures and the natural tors, and these combinations covered in years of gorse and growth give them an otherworldly feeling. Each album is a snapshot of the specific window in which it was made, but, as a creative, you have to constantly be looking inward and keeping an open mind to allow creative ideas come to you, but I’m still not entirely sure if this is a part of ourselves or something else.
Nick: At a push, Hermann Hesse might be my all-time favorite author. This is such a beautiful quote. I’m a massive fan and read most of his books, but I’ve never heard this one. When Jordan and I were kids, there was a huge area of fields and woodland near our house, and it was great to be able to explore this unknown, wild place where your senses are heightened by being there, hearing every rustle of the leaves and catching glimpses of birds or other animals trying not to be seen. Over the years, I got to know it so well that I could never get lost. Even though it was a huge area with several different forests, I felt like I belonged there somehow and that it belonged to me too. That feeling of aliveness and the mystery of the woods seemed magical to me at that age, it kept drawing me back, and it has stayed with me since then. When working on Gift from the Trees in Wales, there was a beautiful valley right next to the studio that I got to look out at every morning brewing my tea and that definitely had a calming effect at the start of the day. Obviously, most of the time we spent working in the studio, but taking long walks through the landscape would always bring a feeling of clarity and focus because we were so far removed from our typical urban environments, which I think shaped into the music.
Jesse: It’s difficult to understand life in moments sometimes because everything is a memory that evolves and exists as it’s experienced in the body. There are smells that bring me joy and peace like the smell of the minerals in granite earth when it’s wet yet not too cold, or wood shavings, or my tabla first thing in the morning. All of these smells can take me back to who I am and where I come from. Also, there’s something very magical about tree sounds and this conversation between the wind and the trees. When I was with my daughter at a local nature spot some time ago, I heard a very large oak tree crack in two, and it sounded like the earth was cracking open, almost as if the tree was shouting out. We immediately ran to the tree to see its new state, and right where it cracked in two, there was a flash of pale wood exposing the core of the tree; it was probably around 400 years old. As Jordan said, making this record was a moment in time, but, as a musician, the aim is always to stay connected to yourself in a way that’s unselfconscious because it’s about improving yourself, loving yourself more, and giving more to the people around you. Giving and being of service should be a part of our lives, as well as part of our creativity.
